see logs for Wednesday 12th Jan 2005 starting at 2100 UTC

21:00 UTC : gmuslera mdavey summoned me, but i suppose that he should be talking in #tikiwiki:mdavey 😊
21:01 UTC : mose heya
21:01 UTC : Joined Deben (~alatar@evrtwa1-ar12-4-3-129-098.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net)
21:02 UTC : luciash hi gustavo, mose
21:03 UTC : gmuslera hi luciash
21:04 UTC : Joined DereDior (~hwill@dsl-084-057-026-040.arcor-ip.net)
21:05 UTC : mdavey summon? bit strong a word!
21:05 UTC : mdavey 😉
21:05 UTC : gmuslera hear me rant and you'll agree 😊
21:06 UTC : qopi signoff: "ChatZilla 0.9.61 Mozilla rv:1.7.2/20040803"
21:06 UTC : mdavey (we are discussing the following document)
21:06 UTC : mdavey t. find TikiPageGroups
21:06 UTC : tikibot mdavey: Sorry, no page name matches TikiPageGroups
21:06 UTC : damian 😛
21:07 UTC : mdavey tikibot you lie
21:07 UTC : mdavey http://tikiwiki.org/tiki-index_raw.php?page=TikiPageGroups
21:07 UTC : H0ney Title: Tikiwiki : TikiPageGroups (at tikiwiki.org)
21:07 UTC : mdavey :P
21:07 UTC : mdavey H0ney thank you! x
21:08 UTC : mdavey gmuslera thanks for you comments on that page
21:09 UTC : mdavey your first comment is spot on
21:09 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: just a few thoughts i had after seeing dokuwiki the other day, was thinking in writing something, but wanted to have the concepts more clear
21:09 UTC : gmuslera and your page were available for comments 😊
21:09 UTC : Joined xing (~xing@194.152.164.45)
21:10 UTC : gmuslera dokuwiki is another one that have nice namespaces
21:10 UTC : mdavey second comment post (by you), first bullet: I agree about the logic - how it oculd be extended to implement the proposal
21:11 UTC : mdavey however, every other wiki I have come across has explicity given the default namespace.
21:11 UTC : damian mdavey TikiPageGroups in Tiki are called WikiFarm
21:11 UTC : damian t. find WikiFarm
21:11 UTC : tikibot damian: Sorry, no page name matches WikiFarm
21:11 UTC : gmuslera http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:namespaces
21:11 UTC : H0ney Title: wiki:namespaces DokuWiki (at wiki.splitbrain.org)
21:12 UTC : damian there is a experimental CVS branch already with some code in it
21:12 UTC : mdavey so you always get pages like Main/HomePage - not /HomePage
21:12 UTC : damian (tikipro call them wiki books)
21:12 UTC : mdavey damian interesting.
21:14 UTC : damian I have some additional code that I was adding to tiki-projects that gives each project its own wiki area with seperate namespace
21:14 UTC : mdavey I'm not at all clear on how to manage a transistion from non-namespace to namespace Tiki.
21:14 UTC : damian which im going to use on blogcorner.net
21:14 UTC : gmuslera at first i thinked that could be a small modification to the code that renders a wiki page, but then things started to get complex from there and, well, wanted to have the concepts more clear .)
21:15 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: all are in the "root" namespace at first
21:15 UTC : gmuslera when you start to have pages with . or : or whatever inside, then you start to see namespaces around
21:15 UTC : mdavey It is easy for a fresh install, of course. And like gmuslera says, if there is an option then admins don't have to turn it on
21:16 UTC : mdavey gmuslera where "root" is / ?
21:16 UTC : mdavey rather than Main
21:16 UTC : gmuslera whatever is used to call it 😊 the top category
21:17 UTC : mdavey yup, but you see the URL as ...?page=Page rather than ...?page=Main/Page for root?
21:17 UTC : mdavey ...cos everyone else seems to do ...?page=Main/Page
21:18 UTC : gmuslera single urls have no context, then should have the full path
21:18 UTC : mdavey (although they tend to have nicer URLs, but that is another issue and one I don't want to touch upon right now)
21:18 UTC : gmuslera or ?page=/Page or ?page=.Page
21:19 UTC : gmuslera or ?page=Page if is in the root
21:19 UTC : damian is using tiki-index_raw.php?farm=Development?page=Home
21:19 UTC : mdavey damian urgh
21:19 UTC : mdavey 😛
21:19 UTC : damian &page= rather
21:19 UTC : gmuslera er... the 2nd is &, not ?
21:20 UTC : damian rewrite rule to http://domain/Development/Home
21:20 UTC : mdavey yup, nice
21:20 UTC : gmuslera the dokuwiki url looks nice anyway
21:21 UTC : damian needs someone to visit his intranet box and commit all this stuff 😊
21:21 UTC : mdavey regarding rewrite rule - if the pageNotFound setting in Apache pointed to tiki-index_raw.php, the rewriting could be taught to Tiki instead
21:21 UTC : gmuslera anyway, in a future i would like to see urls like tiki-index_raw.php?name=whatever (whatever=forum name, wiki page name with path, tracker, etc)
21:21 UTC : mdavey gmuslera yea, I'll take a look at doku
21:21 UTC : damian mdavey hard coding the rewrite is bad, because tiki has a wide choice of hosting. alot is done with safemode and virtual hosts on shared servers
21:22 UTC : damian its much better and friendly to everyone to use htaccess and smartyfilters
21:23 UTC : mdavey I think you can have a per-virtual-host page not found setting. And I wasn't envisioning (sp?) total hard coding - just putting the config in tiki's db rather than in httpd.conf
21:24 UTC : mdavey yea smartyfilters
21:25 UTC : mdavey to summarise, we think we want the default namespace to be "/" rather than "/Main" because that will help with backwards compatability - correct?
21:25 UTC : gmuslera or assume that if no path is provided, we are speaking of /
21:26 UTC : gmuslera or "current namespace" if we are in a page
21:26 UTC : mdavey we could do that with Main - assume f no path is provided, we are speaking of /Main - but might be confusing - might seem like there are two namespaces sharing the same space?
21:27 UTC : mdavey re current namespace - agreed
21:27 UTC : gmuslera when you have tiki-index_raw.php?page=WhatEver, what is the current namespace?
21:27 UTC : gmuslera that is / 😊
21:28 UTC : mdavey okay
21:28 UTC : mdavey next: namespacenames vs pagenames
21:28 UTC : gmuslera but when you are rendering a wiki page, you can render the links to page=CurrentNamespace/WhatEver
21:29 UTC : mdavey brb...
21:29 UTC : gmuslera not thinked enough on it, but probably is not needed a new table for them, or store them separately, just are something inside the names of some wiki pages, interpreted in some special way
21:30 UTC : gmuslera of course, things complicates when you want to give to the Documentation namespace write permission for Editors group 😊
21:30 UTC : mdavey re
21:33 UTC : mdavey ignoring permissions I don't think the markup even needs to change for wiki links within a namespace - just a namespace tickbox on the wiki pane which causes the wikisyntax engine to parse WikiNames containing . or / a little differently and to work out what the current namespace is and prepend it to the page name
21:34 UTC : mdavey oh, and to translate . in the wiki name to / in the URL
21:34 UTC : gmuslera mdavey, with the rewrite rule, you will have http://www.tikisite.org//Page or http://www.tikisite.org/Page? 😊
21:35 UTC : mdavey regarding permissions - I see that as a seperate namespace issue - but it would only be a matter of giving Documentation.tiki_p_wiki_create (or whatever it is) permission to theeditors group
21:35 UTC : gmuslera no, that will not be smart
21:36 UTC : mdavey Apache can't tell the difference. tiki should probably replace multiple / with single / - but in any case, sense would suggest http://www.tikisite.org/Page
21:36 UTC : gmuslera maybe you can have an entry in the object permission table to the Documentation name, with "namespace" description, of tiki_p_wiki_create, and see how to evaluate it later
21:36 UTC : stella_ signoff: "Chatzilla 0.9.66 Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041107"
21:37 UTC : gmuslera so page names will not start with "/" then
21:38 UTC : gmuslera when evaluating object permissions i.e. for a wiki page, if namespaces enabled then should be evaluated the permissions of the namespace too
21:38 UTC : mdavey well I'm not familar with permissions in Tiki but I would have guessed it would be easier to assign the permission Documentation.tiki_p_wiki_create to editors just as you would tiki_p_wiki_create (for the default namespace)
21:38 UTC : gmuslera (im out of this project for several months now, too much work, but wondering how i remembering this yet 😊
21:39 UTC : mdavey page names would start with /. / is shared just as it is with any other http url - the last / in the above example *both* fully qualifies the domain and specifies what local document to return
21:40 UTC : gmuslera mdavey, i think that still permissions names are literals that are checked comparing strings, modifying them will not help
21:40 UTC : gmuslera check the dokuwiki page i referenced above, one thing is how to call them inside a wiki page and other how you do in an url
21:41 UTC : mdavey yup - sorry - the code doing the checking would then have to be made namespace aware to understand that it is checking the tiki_p_wiki_create permission for the Documentation namespace
21:42 UTC : Joined noskule (~chatzilla@adsl-62-167-58-24.adslplus.ch)
21:42 UTC : mdavey in a url http://www.tikisite.org/Page or http://www.tikisite.org/tiki/tiki-index_raw.php?page=Page or http://www.tikisite.org/tiki/tiki-index_raw.php?page=/Page - all would be valid and all would be evaluated to the same thing
21:43 UTC : mdavey on a wiki page: within the same namespace: Page or .Page (or /Page - but deprecated from day 1)
21:44 UTC : noskule hi, i guess i just made i big misstake in my tiki
21:45 UTC : mdavey on a wiki page: from / namespace to Doc namespace: Doc.Page or .Doc.Page (or replace any . with /)
21:45 UTC : gmuslera of course, the syntax could complicate a bit when you want things like ../AnotherChildNamespace/AnotherPage 😊
21:45 UTC : noskule i did try to assign an new modul and wrote in the content window:
21:45 UTC : noskule {wiki id=1} . . .
21:45 UTC : gmuslera the : syntax of dokuwiki looks also nice, but they have a symbol for / and another for separation
21:46 UTC : mdavey I tink you would have to have two rules:
21:46 UTC : mdavey 1. no partially qualified namespaces
21:46 UTC : noskule now the site is gone just a error: Fatal error: Smarty error: in evaluated template line 1: plugin unknown tag - 'wiki' (core.load_plugins.php, line 118) in /home/netstrea/public_html/tikiwiki/lib/smarty/Smarty.class.php on line 1888
21:46 UTC : mdavey 2. no use of .. to move back one namespace
21:46 UTC : gmuslera noskule: that is possible? and anyway, you want to have a wiki page in a module?
21:47 UTC : mdavey (else you would have to implement something very much like the Unix cd command for directory navigation)
21:47 UTC : mdavey *think
21:47 UTC : damian windows has cd too 😛
21:48 UTC : noskule i guess "wiki" isent recogniced be smarty
21:48 UTC : mdavey ah must be ls that is missing. I can never remember which one isn't there 😊
21:48 UTC : gmuslera noskule: I dont think you can use wiki there, unless you write your own smarty modifier
21:48 UTC : noskule but how do i make this undone?
21:48 UTC : mdavey rarely has the "pleasure" of working with windows machines
21:48 UTC : gmuslera noskule: check lib/smarty_tiki/function.*
21:49 UTC : damian yup I always make a ls.bat containing @dir %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 so I dont get frustrated 😊
21:49 UTC : gmuslera uh... mysqladmin?
21:51 UTC : mdavey gmuslera regarding doku - have you had a chance to play with PmWiki or Twiki yet? They work in the same way as each other AFAICT.
21:53 UTC : mdavey regarding namespace - I can't see a problem with namespaces taking the same names as pages - as namespaces must always be qualified by a page name
21:53 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: is that i saw that page this week, so is fresh in my memory 😊 i suppose that pmwiki or twiki or tikipro or tikifarm have their own way to implement them, but if there is a common syntax for most of them, better
21:54 UTC : mdavey the only question is what happens when one goes to http://www.tikisite.org/tiki/tiki-index_raw.php?page=Name
21:55 UTC : mdavey stricly speaking from what we have said so far, Name would be a page in the / namespace. But if we also have http://www.tikisite.org/tiki/tiki-index_raw.php?page=Name.Page we might prefer that the former example belongs in the Name namespace
21:56 UTC : mdavey links to pmwiki and twiki sites from http://tikiwiki.org/tiki-index_raw.php?page=TikiPageGroups
21:56 UTC : mdavey s/from/can be found at/
21:57 UTC : noskule i did lock in that folder, thats the php code, but so i understand i have to delete my wrong entry, to get the site running again, how i would do that?
21:57 UTC : gmuslera noskule: phpmyadmin will enable you to edit the mysql tables
21:58 UTC : gmuslera noskule: not sure if its the best solution, is just the first i thinked of
21:59 UTC : mdavey damian knows what to do
21:59 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: there are several ways to implement it. The easiest one is just a way to see wiki page names, and then if you want to go to http://tikisite.org/tiki-index_raw.php?page=Name and there is no page called just Name, then report that as an error 😊
22:00 UTC : DereDior signoff: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
22:00 UTC : Joined carlos2005 (~ChatBuild@82-44-211-129.cable.ubr09.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
22:01 UTC : mdavey yup. Question is what would be the most user friendly? Would one (as a user) expect ...?page=Name to be the Name page within the / namespace or the "" page within the Name namespace?
22:01 UTC : noskule a thanx, will try that . . .171 tables . .guess tiki_modules . .?
22:01 UTC : gmuslera noskule: tiki_user_modules
22:02 UTC : carlos2005 signoff: Client Quit
22:02 UTC : Hory signoff: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
22:03 UTC : Joined carlos2005 (~chatzilla@82-44-211-129.cable.ubr09.haye.blueyonder.co.uk)
22:04 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: not sure what is more friendly 😊 and of course, the easiest way could be inconsistent in the long run and be needed really a structure to hold namespaces and such, but for now wiki page names are existing page names, and some with special chars inside are interpreted in a special way regarding linked pages
22:05 UTC : mdavey noskule see:
22:05 UTC : noskule oh . .i did delete it in tiki_modules and tiki_user_modules
22:05 UTC : mdavey t. find UserModuleDoc
22:05 UTC : tikibot mdavey: Match 'UserModuleDoc' in http://tikiwiki.org/UserModuleDoc (#0)
22:05 UTC : H0ney Title: Tikiwiki : UserModuleDoc (at tikiwiki.org)
22:05 UTC : Joined SD42 (~chatzilla@router.alerton.com)
22:05 UTC : noskule but site is running again . .thanx very much
22:05 UTC : mdavey too slow
22:06 UTC : Joined DereDior (~hwill@dsl-084-057-016-140.arcor-ip.net)
22:06 UTC : gmuslera np
22:07 UTC : SD42 Is it just me, or is the tikiwiki.org server running really slow? It took 15 seconds just to load the first time, and another 30 seconds to logon. Each page refresh is painful.
22:09 UTC : Joined takisv (~chatzilla@pc001.makper.spark.net.gr)
22:09 UTC : mdavey gmuslera I think we need either a wider audience for the last point or an experimentat option to let admins choose on an installation-by installation basis. Also, I'll look into how others handle it. If they all do it one way - even if that way seems counter-intuitive - then I guess we should do the same
22:09 UTC : gmuslera the painful part is just you 😊 but is reporting a server load of 6.22, so it should be slow
22:09 UTC : Hausi signoff: "my bed is calling"
22:09 UTC : mdavey s/experimentat/experimental/
22:10 UTC : SD42 Ok, so the painful part might have to do with my lunch. But should the load really be that high? Is it just a small system?
22:10 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: anyway check what is already implemented in the tiki farm front, maybe it is already what you want or could go forward from that point
22:10 UTC : mdavey yup - that sounds very promising.
22:11 UTC : mdavey next point (permissions) I think we have pretty much covered.
22:11 UTC : gmuslera sd42: it could have a lot of visits
22:12 UTC : mdavey ...keep it simple for the moment (single wiki-wide permissions as before) - but hint at whoever decides to take the permissions stuff as to possible implementations
22:12 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: probably is just the tip of the iceberg 😊
22:13 UTC : gmuslera anyway, the permissions could evolve after namespaces are implemented
22:13 UTC : mdavey yup - I don't have any intention of going in that direction for the moment - but it would be a very cool thing to have
22:13 UTC : gmuslera but as with permissions, having namespaces could imply some things i'm not seeing right now
22:13 UTC : Parted rycee (~rycee@h81172153015.kund.kommunicera.umea.se)
22:14 UTC : mdavey indeed. And we are limiting ourselves to just wiki pages namespace for the moment - there is much more on the namespace iceberg too, I feel.
22:15 UTC : gmuslera the problem is that other objects dont have proper "names" yet, forum 15, tracker 25 and so on
22:15 UTC : mdavey This stuff - page groups, namespaces, permissions, syntax - is all heavily inter-related. You can't help touch on the others as soon as you start to talk about one.
22:15 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: check my TikiIntegration pages .)
22:16 UTC : mdavey I think it will be too much to try to do it all together - lets focus on something simple, implement it, call it an experimental feature and move on. Let it evolve.
22:16 UTC : mdavey gmuslera okay - added to todo list;)
22:17 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: of course, all of this is not implemented by itself, someone (you?) must implement it 😊
22:17 UTC : mdavey (I've looked at quite a few of your pages already - some very lateral ideas there)
22:18 UTC : Joined burley (jburley@atf.kuci.uci.edu)
22:18 UTC : mdavey gmuslera right - pick something easy to start with. Then let you fix the mess I create 😉
22:19 UTC : mdavey moving on: shortened character-set for wiki names
22:19 UTC : mdavey two characters will no longer be valid in wiki names - that is to say, will be implemented differently.
22:19 UTC : gmuslera already was discussed in the mailing list the need to exclude certain characters from valid wiki page names charsets
22:20 UTC : mdavey recap?
22:20 UTC : gmuslera i.e. "?" 😊
22:20 UTC : mdavey a quick summary of the conclusions in the thread
22:21 UTC : Parted emitchlpd (~erikm@207-67-87-34.gen.twtelecom.net)
22:21 UTC : gmuslera imagine if you have a wiki page named "Home?action=delete" or something like that 😊
22:21 UTC : mdavey ah - you
22:21 UTC : mdavey yup
22:21 UTC : mdavey apache rewriting rules
22:21 UTC : mdavey ...too
22:22 UTC : mdavey are you familiar with the Wiki RFC?
22:22 UTC : gmuslera well, "IF" namespaces are on, they you must check if the namespace-related chars are inside and check syntax and things like that to avoid trouble
22:22 UTC : mdavey Does that make recommendation on valid characters?
22:22 UTC : mdavey yup
22:23 UTC : mdavey some would want to be excluded anyway, like your example shows
22:23 UTC : gmuslera mdavey: the point was related to have 3 alternative charsets for pagenames in tiki, one with "normal" ones, other with latin ones like accented chars and so on, and the last one was "everything", well, everything is not everything for page names 😊
22:24 UTC : mdavey Hmm. Accented chars aren't allowed in URLs. WikiWords could implement puny though.
22:25 UTC : gmuslera they are url-ized
22:25 UTC : Joined takisv_ (~chatzilla@pc001.makper.spark.net.gr)
22:26 UTC : mose urlencoded
22:26 UTC : gmuslera i.e. #235 instead of some weird char
22:26 UTC : gmuslera that was the word 😊
22:26 UTC : mdavey using %s or punycode?
22:26 UTC : mose hey gus
22:26 UTC : gmuslera bored mose? 😊
22:26 UTC : mose never
22:26 UTC : gmuslera whats giving so much load to tw.o? someone "mirroring" the site?
22:26 UTC : mose no obvious visible reason
22:27 UTC : gmuslera ok
22:27 UTC : mose but I'm planning some fixes in my kernel
22:27 UTC : mose that should be better very soon
22:27 UTC : gmuslera kernel?
22:27 UTC : DereDior signoff: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
22:27 UTC : gmuslera i thinked that was too much people accessing to tiki
22:28 UTC : mose yeah, imagine that the DMA is not enabled
22:28 UTC : gmuslera uh, ok
22:28 UTC : mose that will boost it up
22:28 UTC : mdavey gmuslera Need to give i18n more thought
22:28 UTC : mdavey *I* need to...
22:28 UTC : gmuslera 😊
22:29 UTC : gmuslera mose: could be something related to the php accelerator?
22:30 UTC : mdavey But I think making wiki namespaces / page groups optional will sort out most of the character-set problems that we might see (ignoring all the "minor" stuff like i18n). There probably aren't many ppl using / or . in their wikiwords anyway.
22:30 UTC : Joined DereDior (~hwill@dsl-084-057-012-183.arcor-ip.net)
22:31 UTC : mdavey gmuslera okay I tink we have covered your last point, too.
22:31 UTC : mdavey Anything else?
22:31 UTC : gmuslera mdave: make it optional, and probably the first point of touch is around the function parse_data
22:33 UTC : takisv signoff: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
22:34 UTC : mdavey yup. optional and at the simplest there are only two things to be done. 1. break the namespace out of the wiki word 2. work out the fully qualified namespace/pagename given the wikiword namespace, wikiword page name and namespace of the current page
22:34 UTC : gmuslera something in the line of if ($feature_wiki_namespaces="y") then check if the wikiwords have namespace separators and make links according to that
22:35 UTC : mdavey yup. Might just want a second feature: feature_wiki_strick_words - which would error if namespaces are off and namespace chars are used.
22:35 UTC : gmuslera of course, is the kind of function that im scared to death of touching 😊
22:36 UTC : mdavey s/strick/strict/
22:36 UTC : mdavey that is why features are so great - do it properly and it only breaks when the feature is turned on 😉
22:37 UTC : mose the wiki parser is very central
22:37 UTC : mose mess it up and all the tikians will curse you
22:37 UTC : mdavey the power of peer (p)review
22:38 UTC : gmuslera for that was the first making it optional, enclose your modif inside that if, dont make syntax errors and will work as today for sites that dont have that enabled 😊
22:39 UTC : gmuslera i.e. tikiwiki.org 😊
22:42 UTC : gmuslera well... have to go, still work to do 😑
22:42 UTC : mdavey gmuslera the page is very ropey right now - feel free to edit it for clarification, add your own musing and so on. I see it very much as a community work in progress 😊
22:42 UTC : Joined Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56)
22:42 UTC : gmuslera signoff: Remote closed the connection
22:43 UTC : mdavey gmuslera many thanks for your time - it has really helped to bouce the ideas around. I'll update the page at some point with my further findings and a copy of this IRC chat
22:43 UTC : mdavey *bounce
22:48 UTC : takisv_ signoff: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)